Puppy update: "You're overthinking it."

"Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo" (thetomselleck) 04/21/2016 at 23:32 • Filed to: mahhhh dawwwwwg, puppy

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Potato dog

When I have an opinion about mah dog, I am regularly told by others that I’m stressing out, overthinking it, or misreading it. This is my first dog, so all three replies are generally true. But still!

There are many positive things about this puppy. She has no food aggression, she loves people and animals, she is 95% housebroken, and she is very cute.

But there are other things with general puppyhood. She will chase after a butterfly. She lunges towards dogs and children because all she wants to do is play. And she picks and chooses what she obeys or does not obey.

My general internal debate revolves around training. The puppy classes we are in right now (6 month old or younger) is an all-positivity based class. There are no real corrections, just lots and lots of treats. However, to me it often feels like bribing. My wife and I will have a talk after each class, and we agree that some things seem a little too much. And sometimes the treats are overwhelming. They themselves become a distraction from the actual task at hand.

I’ve been experimenting lately, giving her commands without the treat in situations where there would typically be one. What she does is look at my hands and pockets to see if I have anything on me, and will resist more often than not without the perceived promise of a treat. So instead obeying in hopes of a reward, what I get for some commands is her internally calculating if it’s worth her time at all.

There are a few commands my dog does extremely well (leave it, sit, place/home). However, I had to be fairly firm with those. There were and are no treats involved (except for praise sometimes I suppose). And then I wonder if it’s because I’m using fear, vs just being the “alpha.” She’s an incredibly energetic dog and seems to respond to a firm hand better than cutesy stuff...

So basically, on one hand, I’m worried that this whole treats thing is just a bribing my dog vs getting her to respect me, and on the other, I don’t quite have a grasp of the line between “dominating” and “intimidating.”

She’s a really good pup, though. I can see the appeal of dogs as time goes on. When I leave the room for thirteen seconds to grab a beer, her excitement is comparable to returning from a 2-week vacation.

JGrabowMSt > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/21/2016 at 23:40

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Treat training is bad. It’s fine to begin treat training with certain things, but overall, it shouldn’t extend to general behavior.

Just be the bigger dog. It will be tough, but dogs are smart, give her time.

jvirgs drives a Subaru > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/21/2016 at 23:40

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That face though.

smobgirl > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/21/2016 at 23:45

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I can’t vouch for how (or how well) my dog was trained. But she’s 11-ish now, I’ve had her for 3-ish years, and the only thing she obeys without a visible treat is “sit.” Maybe she was only trained with treats or maybe she was just poorly trained to begin with, but her behavior is atrocious 90% of the time. If you guys think something else will work (and there’s obviously more than one way to train a dog), go for it.

I can vouch that treat-only training works pretty well with cats. They really have no incentive to do anything besides food.

interstate366, now In The Industry > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/21/2016 at 23:46

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With my dog it took a mix of positivity and firmness. But he was a rescue and had never had an alpha, so it took awhile. He’s turned out to be a great dog, although he still has his moments.

This morning he was checking out my 3rd gen’s interior when I was taking pics for the review I’m doing of it.

Birddog > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/21/2016 at 23:54

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Treat training is dangerous. I can’t say much else on training as the last time I went through what you’re going through was almost 10 yeas ago. I forgot most of what “we” did except that it was a chore. Since then all of my Dogs have been older rescues that were pretty much pre-trained.

facw > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 00:11

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If you’re training with treats, you are supposed to back off after a while. The treat is just there to create a positive association, but eventually praise is supposed to be enough.

Alfalfa > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 00:11

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While the subject is certainly rife with strong opinions, consider a shock collar. It makes training much easier. Just a simple one with a remote that you use when she disobeys. Most even come with a light and vibration that you can use as a warning before the shock. Also, the shock typically isn’t that bad. I’ve used our collar on myself to test it out, the pain is minimal, it’s more of the discomfort of an involuntary twitch.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > facw 04/22/2016 at 00:14

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That’s what I’m told. I just notice that for some things, she will not do if she’s certain no treat is involved. Maybe trying that too soon...

His Stigness > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 00:26

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As a few have said, treat training seems dangerous, and we didn’t do that with my dog; treats were just that: treats, not really rewards for what she should do. We got her as a puppy (pure bred Aussie), and we never took her to classes, we just persisted. Whenever she peed anywhere in the house as a baby, we laid down puppy pads until we trained her to ask to go outside (she’s an inside dog), and that happened very quickly. She also listens to all the basic commands, but sometimes she ignores us if she’s not paying attention.

Overall though, she’s an amazing dog. We can leave food out in her reach and walk away and she never touches it. We feed her twice a day and she does not start eating until we say “okay,” nothing else. That’s become a little party trick, because we’ll say things like “all right” “go ahead,” and other things, but she won’t go. She’ll sit their drooling until we say “okay.” I guess it helped to have four or so people giving her commands all the time, so she picked things up quickly. We were also very firm with her; never mean, just firm. She also knows the different tones of our voices. If we’re mad at her, and yell at her, she hangs her head and walks away, because she knew what she did. She doesn’t like being yelled at.

I miss my dog, I wish my sister would bring her back!

TheRealBicycleBuck > His Stigness 04/22/2016 at 00:29

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We use “okay” to give our dogs permission too. They must sit and wait, whether it is to go outside, eat food, etc. It’s a good word.

His Stigness > TheRealBicycleBuck 04/22/2016 at 00:40

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When it’s anything other than food or treats, she can go on other commands, but we generally use okay for as many things as possible. She’s very good at sitting and waiting for permission. Unless a squirrel runs by, in which case, hold on for dear life!

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 00:58

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You’re puppy seems cool. Mine is an jerk who is destroying my house and murdering all of my daughter’s dolls. I’m finding this pretty much every other day.

He’s 7 months so I’m hoping he’ll grow out of it. Can’t give him treats to fix chewing so we’re just giving him lots of things he’s allowed to chew on. He’s so annoying, but when he wakes you up in the morning like this it’s hard to stay mad.

CCC (formerly CyclistCarCoexist) > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 01:32

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Treat training is like giving bribes to a child. It should stop soon before it becomes dependant. But remember, you must have the alpha dynamic in the doggy-owner. Know who’s boss and failing to do so can really screw things up down the line.

vicali > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 11:30

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Our first level puppy classes used treats, after that the classes used less and less until there were only verbal calls.. It worked - Bella is a choc lab though so food = everything.

vicali > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 11:39

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Overthinking it, lol.. We got our pup 6 years ago when we bought our first house, she got all the training, safety leashes, best food with supplements, 3 walks a day, for three solid years.. Then the kids came.

Now she’s the most mellow, best family dog I’ve ever seen. All the attention and training early on must have worked because she’s low maintenance, fun, doesn’t chew/bark/bite..

She’s up in the morning playing with the kids and follows them around the house all day, then she sleeps outside their bedrooms at night before jumping into her crate..

Do what you think is right - dogs are awesome- She will figure out what you need.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 04/22/2016 at 14:57

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I did a similar dog training class when I was a teenager with our puppy german shepard. They didn’t use treats, just positive affirmation. She learned the basic commands for life. She was also very easy to train and above average intelligence for a dog.

Now our current dog, a rescue dog (husky mix). Does basic commands very well without treats in a controlled environment (fenced yard, inside house). Outside in the wild he just ignores us, he gets a scent and will take off for 30 minutes to an hour sniffing after deer and probably visiting every dog in the neighborhood.